Alcohol / Ethanol & Alternative Fuels

[Darren Dirt]

admin said:

"And so castles made of sand,
melt into the sea, eventually."

Jimi Hendrix

But wait, what if the natural wave cycle of the sea is being artificially hindered by weather modification viz. chemtrails+HAARP? :-\

[NonEntity]

An interesting article here contains the following quote:

"A recent careful study by Cornell University's David Pimentel and the University of California at Berkeley's Tad Patzek added up all the energy consumption that goes into ethanol production. They took account of the energy it takes to build and run tractors. They added in the energy embodied in the other inputs and irrigation. They parsed out how much is used at the ethanol plant.

"Putting it all together, they found that it takes 29 percent more energy to make ethanol from corn than is contained in the ethanol itself."

- NonE

[sagas4]

NonE,

Cool article.

In reply,

1. The corn producers association didn't claim it was more effecient when including building of tractors etc. They said, "it takes less energy to grow the crop and process it than the amount of energy in the ethanol itself". This presumes a farmer is already growing the crop and is probably the limitation of the study. (You know as well as I do about sample size, limits and all, try to look at too much and there are so many variables a good answer cannot be reached). What I would think based upon this is that if you used ethanol to fuel the tractors and waste product to fuel the distillers you'll be able to convert energy effeciently.

2. The article you linked to contains legalland logic. i.e. "The federal government subsidizes ethanol producers with a tax credit of 51 cents per gallon of fuel ethanol; those subsidies will total about $1.4 billion this year". Only in legal land can not stealing something in the first place be considered giving someone a "subsidy".

3. "Indeed, no matter how expensive fossil fuels become, ethanol will never be economical because it takes so much fossil fuel to produce". Ok let's not look at other ways of distilling, like using corn cobs and other waste products that will be produced anyway to fuel the distillers instead of fossil fuel. (Brazil does this with a +34% effeciency).

4. "The answer appears to be that elected officials from corn- growing states such as Iowa and Illinois see it as a cash cow for their constituents". I don't disagree here. Politicians will always do what is in their best interest to keep getting re-elected.

5. "At least ethanol reduces pollution, right? Maybe the subsidies are worthwhile because they will buy us a cleaner environment. Guess again. First, corn production, according to Pimentel and Patzek, ``uses more herbicides and insecticides than any other crop produced in the U.S.''

My reply: It's already being used and there have been investigative news articles (cant recall the exact location at the moment for reference) that documented government buying corn and dumping it in the ocean to keep corn prices stable, if this is true then it is a zero sum. Simply put the harvested corn to good use. Furthermore, many farmers are finding that all these nasty chemicals are increasing their costs and resulting in nominal yield increases. The farm next to me figured this out and only uses a little anhydrous ammonia (for nitrogen content) every few years if they don't rotate the crop to beans which actually deposits nitrogen into the soil and that's it. No herbicides pesticides or anything else. I've begun noticing praying mantis, lady bugs and all kind of other good critters I haven seen since I was a kid.

6. "Ethanol itself contributes to air pollution. Cars emit more air pollution when they run on gasoline containing ethanol than they do when running on gasoline alone". This is a true statement for automobiles tuned to run on gasoline esp. when the alcohol is not sufficiently atomized proportional to the gasoline content; however it is only half the truth. Pure ethyl alcohol combustion is cleaner than hydrocarbons which also contain sulfur and other nasties. Ethyl Alcohol molecule = CH3CH2OH (1 Carbon, 3 Hydrogen / 1 carbon, 2 hydrogen / 1 oxygen, 1 hydrogen) Total 2 Carbons per Molecule.

Gasoline is more difficult to represent because there are more compounds however the simple formula is C8H18. (8 carbon, 18 hydrogen). Total 8 carbons per molecule.

As you can see there's a heck-of-a-lot-o more carbon per molecule that can turn into CO and CO2 when burned.

7. "But even with decades of federal subsidies, private companies still haven't developed an economical ethanol, and public sector progress is minimal". - Does anyone think that maybe there's a whole host of political reasons. A. There is no incentive because of restrictive regulation (Heck if I want to make this stuff for my own use in a small private still I am suppose to get a freakin license; B. Oil companies stand to loose so they would be lobying aginst development on a wide scale and supportive of restrictive regulation.

8. If this is so uneconomical then how does Brazil Do IT? They maintain a positive 34% balance since switching to ethanol from sugarcane for fuel. They use the waste to fuel the distillers.

9. From the National corn growers association, To set the record straight, the National Corn Growers Association has compiled the following information that questions Pimentel’s and Patzek’s credibility as well as the oil industry’s influence on these studies. We have also provided government and university studies that demonstrate ethanol’s positive energy balance."

See This for more links.

I don't trust the "government", and I don't like the fact that many universities are funded by such means, but many university scientists and researchers would be far better at remaining objective than someone with a vested interest in a particular industry. It is one of the few places where government and other donators say "here's some money, do some research on this topic, and give us an answer", without the answer being predetermined and one trying to make science "prove" the predetermined answer.

10. Roy McAllister has outlined a path and done a great deal of research and number crunching to show as close to true costs as possible, and I am convinced alternative energy sources are far more effective than we have been led to believe. A very simple thing to ask that will demonstrate this is by using Pimentel’s and Patzek’s own rationale by not limiting the scope and then really looking at all of the FACTS . If we are going to include the total cost of production as in the manufacturing of the tractors, then lets look at the total cost of fossil fuel production as well.

1. How much material is required and how long does it take to make fossil fuel?

2. To make corn and turn it into ethanol?

1. A. Let's see 1. An awful lot of dinosaurs and a few million years and a bunch of heavy equipment and machinery to refine transport and deliver.

2.A. A bunch of heavy equipment and machinery to refine transport and deliver, 1 growing season, some water, yeast, and use of waste products to do the distilling (Like Brazil does at a positive gain of 34%).

Hmmm?

[sagas4]

Bump.

When I get a chance I'll run through this thread scan the links and edit the First Post in this thread.

If y'all have other alternative fuel links please feel free to post and discuss.

And more links in regards to the story of Ethanol not being effecient prompted by the caller to Marc's show 1/Apr/06.

Energy Balance Study 2004
Wang 2005
Dale 2002
Not that I like state agencies; however The Minnesota Department of Agriculture Agrees that Ethanol is efficient

Energy Balance Summary - MN Dept. of Ag.

Fuel	Yield	(loss)/Gain
Gasoline	0.805	(19.5 percent)
Diesel	0.843	(15.7 percent)
Ethanol	1.34	34 percent
Biodiesel	3.20	220 percent

I'll post this link again.

It's a process for making Bio-Diesel without methanol Lye and other caustic chemicals.

Hydrogen Appliances Bio-Pass process.

[KaosTheory]

deleted, see next post

[KaosTheory]

This is a great thread guys. I love this kind of stuff. I have been reading thru all the links and am planning on ordering Roy McAlister's info bundle.

Have any of you heard of the N-Machine? Here is a link:

depalma.pair.com/

I have a video of this guy demonstrating this thing. I thought it was pretty interesting.

Here is one of his essays that is way cool.

depalma.pair.com/Absurdity/Absurdity03/AbsurdityOfKnowledge.html

"The Absurdity of Knowledge relates to the fact that Knowledge is an interpretation of reality. What was known to be true at a certain time can be replaced with "new" knowledge resulting in a different interpretation. Peace can become war, and love can become knowledge. The truth is that we do not understand the nature of the world we live in. We can become what we want to become through the nature of our thought. Of course, that could return us to the Garden of Eden, but if we again become fascinated by the allure of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge we expel ourselves from the peace of God's garden into the excitement of the growth and build-up of various civilisations. Each society is based on an interpretation. And when the limitations of that interpretation express themselves in an eventual devitalisation of the society so generated, the civilisation fails, and after an interregnum is replaced by another."

KT

[sagas4]

KT,

You might want to read through this thread; I think I did a review somewhere.

While I would purchase the materials again, Roy's book is more of an outline of how to get to a hydrogen economy rather than a how to build or do something yourself. The DVD's did not provide as much practical information as I would have liked either. You will get a refresher of chemistry class though and can design expieriments of your own from there. You will likely have the basic knowledge to convert a lawnmower engine to hydrogen for starters to gain some experience.

Thanks for the Link to Bruce DePalma's stuff. Kool!

Of course one always searches for a "critical experiment" to prove or disprove a scientific thought.

For those of us who interest ourselves in altering Reality there has to be a critical experiment which changes everything. Does the photon divide itself before the double slit experiment -- so that one half goes through one slit and the remainder through the other?

If in the performance of an experiment we create a contradiction, does Reality come crashing down?

Maybe only in our heads since the map is not the territory and we can dream-up anything we want.

[KaosTheory]

Saga,

Thanks for the review of Roy's info. I was thinking the DVD was gonna go into greater detail. That is the way he was selling it anyway. Does he offer more DVD's for deeper study?

Do you suggest maybe just getting the DVD and skip the books? I was planning on melting some concrete with that freznal lens though.

I'm downloading the sample video now and then I'll get the mp3.

I thought his idea of filling up garbage bags with hydrogen was pretty funny. I kept picturing someone touching a lit cigarette to it.

Heh heh fun for the whole family. BA BOOOOOM!! Oh the humanity!

I'm still reading through Bruce DePalma's stuff too. I figured you'd lock onto his frequency. I was reading thru and thinking "Hmm where have I heard that stuff before?" I like that guy.

KT

[sagas4]

KT,

The DVD's do have quite a bit of detail. Calculations, safety issues etc., etc. I don't want to misrepresent whats in there though.

The way it is advertized I thought I'd get some specific info on doing some experiemnts. You know once you have put something together yourself and can see what is happening you can then build all kinds of stuff from that basic applied knowledge. There is knowledge to be found in the DVD's however it's not a step by step though and some folks need that so I wanted to make sure that was clear.

I liked the Hydrogen Car DVD and the Hydrogen Classroom course DVD. There is a wealth of information there but don;t get the idea you'll be able to convert your own car anytime soon. All the stuff needed to make and contain hydrogen in quantity for everyday usage could get expensive. (Course when gas gets to $5.00/gallon it's gonna start lookin better). Me and a friend were going to conduct some experiemnts this winter but other projects have taken priority.

The Books Steve Wrote Himself are most excellent for the step by step solar experimenter. They are like a small tight spiral bound 8.5 x 11 office report might be done for 50 or 100 people if you know what I'm talking about, so it is not profesional publisher quality; however there are lots-0-simple fun experiments in the solar energy books. Heck I got all the stuff except a PV solar panel layin round in my junk pile in the garage. (Yes even a compressor out of a fridge and an inverter too).

He has some pretty cheap fresnel lenses. Man those things are awsome! We didn't have much snow here this winter but it was fun goin out on a cold day and setting stuff on fire from nothing but sunlight and a piece of plastic. he he he.

Right on with DePalma's stuff. It's a shame folks like him are no longer with us. He must have passed on early, or graduated from M.I.T. late; however it is good people are keeping his ideas alive. I'm gonna have some fun with that stuff!! Thanks for posting it.

[KaosTheory]

Saga,

I'm gonna get the DVD combo. I'm really interested in seeing if it would be possible to start some kind of business converting cars over to this H2 system. I see some other products that are simpler to install like Hydro-Gen that boosts up gas mileage a bit. I really like Roy's system though. I'm currently doing more research on this topic.

Maybe you have asked these questions already:

1. How hard is it to make your own alcohol fuel?
2. What is the cost of this?
3. How much fuel is produced in how much time?
4. What type of maintenance is involved for this fuel creation system?
5. What is the total cost of converting your car over to H2?
6. What would be the cheapest fuel alternative to run in the H2 car in case you don't want to make your own fuel?
7. Which is the best and safest way to make your own hydrogen?
8. How do you get it into the pressurized tank?

KT

[sagas4]

Those questions are either answered in the DVD or you can gain the knowledge to figure it out.

The problem with the H2 boost in a car engine is that the easiest and most effecient way to convert is to use the SPARK INJECTORS Roy's team developed with a computerized ignition system ans sensors that can sense the fuel (Alcohol, diesel, propane) because the timing must be adjusted for each fuel. One can do this manually but to have a truely multi-fuel engine it should sense the base fuel and adjust the timing of the spark accordingly. The problem is that this stuff (Spark injectors), is hand made at the moment (not mass produced) and the cost is about 5k frns per spark injector.

If you do the Math the Hydro-Gen appliance should not work, however, Scott sells them realtively cheap so I have thought about getting one an doing some experiemnts. I have exchanged some emails and am on his mailing list.

The link is www.savefuel.ca/

You can build the appliance he builds as it is a simple electrolysis unit powered by the alternator of your car. (I do not know where to get the carbon fiber canister though so PVC is the best you could build and plans abound on the internet). If you do the math It only takes about 5 to 8 HP to keep a vehicle moving down the road at 65 to 70 mph. All that leftover is used for alternator, airconditioner, etc., or wasted once actually moving so the electrolysis unit will make H2. The problem is that with "wet alcohol", or other fuels that don't burn as well as Gasoline or Petroleum Diesel, you need to mix somewhere on the order of 5% to 7% H2 in the mix to receive a tangible benefit. These underhood electrolysis units are lucky to produce 1% but you can't just hook up 7 of them, because that is too much drain on the alternator, so you now need to add alternators, then you start using that excess horse power quick. Some have thought that you could use the electrolysis unite to produce H2 as the only fuel, but it will not produce as fast as consumed and therefor combusion cannot be sustained for any lenght of time.

I'm not sure how a 1% mix will alter the ratios exactly but you might get a 3 to 10 mile per tank gain. For me that would be 1 round trip on my normal travels every 4 weeks so it would take 16 weeks to save 1 tank. That's 4 tanks a year at about $30 to $35 fillup at current prices. Being optimistic I could save $140/yr Which means it would take 1 year and 7 months to pay for the Hydro-Gen Appliance.

Now If you can get 15% or 20% as Scott claims then it might be worth it. If you get one before anyone else here please keep us posted and keep the stats. I plan on doing that when I get the time just for fun.

[KaosTheory]

Yeah, if the Hydro-Gen can only produce that little bit of H2, it doesn't even sound like it's worth messing with. There has to be a better way of creating more hydrogen in less time.

I had no idea that the Spark Injectors cost that much. That fact alone seems to put an end to my ideas about converting cars as a business not to mention the lack of available local hydrogen and alt fuels.

I did a bit of reading about producing and storing hydrogen using MH. That seems like a pretty complicated process so far.

It looks like a network of people working together on this might help move it along. Someone to focus on hydrogen production, someone to handle alternative fuels, someone to work on machining the spark injectors etc. If Spark Injectors go for that much, I can imagine just focusing on producing those things for example.

I'm still in the dark about a lot of this until I get a chance to go over the material on the DVD and books.

[sagas4]

They are hand made at the moment.

I think you are correct, Metal-Hydride is a more efficient storage medium than compressed gas but it is not something easily done for the do it yourselfer.

Yes that is more what the book is about. Roy is trying to get some interest there. If the spark injectors could be made cheap and mass produced, folks in So. California, Arizona, Texas, etc., started doing solar electrolysis, People in the plains states with high winds started doing wind powered electrolysis and H2 was more available and cheaper than gasoline, well demand would naturally migrate from the fossil fuel to the h2 market. It's like producing anything new though. If it is something totally new there may not be any demand because no one knows about it, but if it is a good product or service people will begin to use it demand will increase and with mass production price will drop. (Look at the flat panel plasma display TV's a few years ago. Just 3 years ago the 52" were 10k, now you can get one at Wal-Mart, for $1300). In some instances there is a ready demand before there is a product or service to meet it and that is a ripe market for making a killing.; in this case there is already a product meeting the demand for energy though. We need to produce it cheaper and more efficiently from renewable sources and then who ever does so is sitting on a cash cow because there is one constant in this plane of existence. It requires energy to sustain our life, even primitive cultures use fire, and there are people who are willing to exchange with you for that energy so they don't have to find or generate it themselves.

Keep in mind I think Roy and or his team or Hydrogen Organization holds the patent for the spark injectors. They would likely license the production but I think he is looking for mass production. You might want to contact him directly about that. The only issue I have with Roy's approach is that he is trying to build a network of people to form political pressure on politicians to "change the laws" to provide incentives to move to this market. I think that is a waste of time. Just start making the stuff, when people realize the benefits, and cost savings (after mass production takes hold), the politicians purpose will become self-evident when they attempt to regulate the market and preserve the oil economy.

I would still check out Scott's Hydro-Gen Appliance. I was talking about the actual percentage of fuel mix based up on Roy's and Steve's information. Scott seems to think you can get anywhere from a 10% to 50% MPG Gain. The math doesn't add up at a 1% or less H2 concentration in 99% Gasoline and its even worse with 1% H2 or less, in 10% Ethanol 89% Gasoline mix, but Scott claims the MPG gain and has satisfy ed customers testimonials. When I get the extra change I figure it's worth the FRN's as a learning experience, and if I don't get the gain then I've still got a nice carbon fiber electrolysis unit I can hook to the battery charger to fill balloons and make some nice aerial explosive displays. ;D

[KaosTheory]

I exchanged a few emails with Steven Harris, who is a bit of a jerk btw, and he says that Scott's device is worthless.

He didn't go into detail but he says that it was covered in the video.

Quote:

KT wrote:
Steve,

Yeah, this Hydro-Gen thing is a small hydrogen generator using simple eletrolysis. It sends the hydrogen to the engine intake and he says you are suppose to get a 21% increase in mileage. Are you familiar with this device?

Steven wrote:
Like I said in the last email, what part did you not understand. It is COMPLETE 100% BULLSHIT! We spend 45 minutes in the video on the subject alone.

[yeoman]

Dear Fellow Adventurers,

The above link from Sagas4 on "bio-pass process " reminds me of the story of the farmer and the traveling salesman. The salesman told the farmer that he had a sure-fire way to cut feed costs and would share it for a fair sum. The farmer thought about it for a moment and replied that he had an idea to cure the salesman's horse from slobbering so bad. Since the salesman was concerned about his image and all he agreed that both of them would write their secret on pieces of paper and they would exchange them. The farmer opened his to read "The secret to cutting feed costs is mix some sawdust in the feed. The more sawdust added, the more savings!" As the salesman rode away, he read his paper: "Cure your horse of slobbering, teach it to spit."

Certainly, if one adds enough diesel to vegetable oil it will burn regardless of whether it passes through "magic" 'accusorb beads' as long as it is clean, in my experience. I am still a novice on bio-diesel (300+ gallons made), but the 50 cent a gallon material cost is bearable as I work toward conversion to straight veg. oil use. Thanks for all of y'alls interesting posts.

Yeoman