IRS notices

[KaosTheory]

Marc,

What types of problems have you encountered when helping people who are non-filers? What types of IRS letters do they get and how do you/they usually answer the letters? I know that one letter in your book you mention the helpful lady at the IRS office in California telling you ask her your questions in writing and then she writes back saying that your question was frivolous which was hilarious by the way.

[marc stevens]

Thanks. At least Susan had sense enough to drop her "claim." She worked for the franchise tax board though. For those familiar, you'll understand how rare that is. The ftb guys tend to be more...robotic than other tax agents.

The responses vary, though you always get a form letter. Sometimes you get a letter asking where your return is, a notice of deficiency, a notice of levy or lien.

The irs rarely sends a responsive form letter. Sometimes you get the "thank you for your letter of *****, we are taking the information under advisement" letter. This usually means everything is being stopped.

[KaosTheory]

How would you yourself reply if you got a demand from the IRS that you must file a form?

[marc stevens]

I reply to them as I would anyone else claiming a right to my property.

I write that I'm not a lawyer and don't have enough information to take a position. I'd be happy to fulfill the alleged obligation; please provide the facts you rely on to prove the obligation was created.

An example is in Adventures in Legal Land. I may also ask for a factual time line showing where, when, why and how the alleged obligation was created.

Before anyone asks: "What if they don't respond? Let me answer now.

Doesn't matter. If they continue without providing the facts there is a presumption there are no facts. This has helped a number of people avoid being indicted for tax evasion of failure to file. Hard to prove when someone is willing to pay after the facts are on the table and the agents refuse.

[KaosTheory]

So you have never had to mess with any of this business about a STRAW MAN or anything of that nature? I am guessing your answer is no but I figured I'd pick your brain about any experiences you might have had with Redemption or anything.

Have they ever tried to say that you were a U.S. Citizen and that it was your duty or anything like that? I imagine the same tactic applies. "Show me the facts". Bear with me, I'm not use to things being simple......

I agree with your tactics on this issue. It is in line with everything else I've been reading about not arguing and staying in honor vs dishonor. You are basically offering a Conditional Acceptance and offer to pay.

[marc stevens]

Strawman is putting forth a position. Any position that is put forth as a "defense" can and will be denied. What sucks is you have given them an opportunity to be responsive. I only use the position, claim or opinion the bureaucrat puts forth.

I don't assume I am entitled to a fair hearing and responsive answers to my questions, I ask the bureaucrat if I am. When he says yes, I can then get him to contradict himself later. When he refuses to answer my questions I can point out his opinion, which is THE LAW, that I am "entitled to responsive answers to my questions. They really hate when I do that.

Also, any position based on there being a legitimate government or "state" is flawed. Everything from that is flawed. Why use a position that presumes there is a "state" when we know there is no "state?"

I don't have a burden of proof; it makes no sense to pick up the burden for the people trying to take my property.

Yes, the citizenship issue has come up and they usually back off when I ask what a citizen is factually.

I don't want to be seen as argumentative or combative. If they could prove, with facts, not nonsensical legal gibberish, they had a right to my property, then yes, I would pay.

[rushpat]

Great info!


I've been dealing with the FTB for a while (actually a full year now), and they've just gotten to the point of "Notice of State Tax Due".

Last year, when they first asked for a CA tax return, I told them I would when they proved their claim that I had a liability to do so. Shut them down for 6 months.

Early this year, they stopped asking for a return (for the most part) and just started demanding money. I took a different stance this time, and I'm not sure now if it was the right one. I asked them to follow the FDCPA and provide certified verification of the alleged debt. I did note that I wasn't refusing to pay, but asking for proof.

Several non-responses later, I finally told them that they had 90 days and never provided verification so they defaulted.

Marc, would you suggest that I start, once again, saying that I'd be happy to pay if they'd provide the evidence of obligation? Or should I stick to the path I'm on?

I'm hoping I've not done damage to myself so far. I'm trying very hard to find a way to avoid my bank and employer from handing over the $$$, but it might take a court case to stop them.

I'm helped a little by the fact that I'm no longer in California, and I think my employer might not be as intimidated by a foreign tax agent from a jurisdiction 3000+ miles away, and might actually hold out until a court judgment is proved, but I'm not sure.

Thanks for any thoughts.

Love the book (so far... only 15% through it).

[rushpat]

The real question is, what to do when the notices of lien/levy show up at your employer's payroll dept, even after telling them that you would be willing to do as they asked if they could just provide the info on how/when the obligation came about.

[Bruce Email bc20charternet]

I have fought third partie for ten years now. I our case the only thing that IRS has done is get third parties to break the law. County Recorder files bogus Notice of Federal Tax Lien and Title Companies recognize them as a valid encumbrance. Agent send the bank a bogus Notice of Levy and the bank recognizes it as a valid levy. Agent send SSI a Notice of Levy and on the back starts out at Sec. (b) which tells them how to levy. Cover letter telling SSI that I am an employee and send IRS 100% of my "take home Pay." The copy IRS send to me starts out with Sec. (a) which clearly shows I am not subject to the tax unless I truly am a government employee. Its all third parties and as far as I can tell the local agent has done nothing wrong except lie and there is no law against that so he is clean.

Question how do we handle third parties and don't say sue them I have been their.

Bruce Email, [e-mail]

Its all in third parties

[rushpat]

What happened when you tried suing the 3rd parties?

Banks: don't have the account in your name. Set up an LLC or trust (not having you as beneficiary), or a trusted friend.

Job: a little harder... contracting through your LLC or owning your own business.

All of it is tough, but it is probably the most complete way to take care of it.

[KaosTheory]

Have either of you rebutted your IMF?

[marc stevens]

I knew the guys in Payson, Arizona who charged $$$ to decode the IMF and guaranteed they were they "only" ones who knew how to get it into evidence. Lowell Becraft was not able to get it into evidence though. Big surprise.

I would not use something like the IMF because I would be assuming a position. Much more effective to ask the agent to show his cards and find out he's bluffing.

Third parties are tough because they are scared. Employers and banks will just hand over the property. I helped with a court action in Kalifornia, it was a quite title action, and the "law" explicitly forbids the conveyance of the property in question until after a final judgment. Despite this, the bank's lawyers advised the bank employees to hand over the property.

There are contracting companies out there to help avoid such a situation.

[KaosTheory]

My line of reasoning went along the lines of... if the IRS starts saying you owe and you produce a rebutted IMF that says you are not engaged in taxable activity,....would the IRS leave you alone at that point? So the third party thing wouldn't or shouldn't even come into play.

Anyone with experience in this area?

I do agree with you though Mark. Get them to expose their hand. I am just wondering if this would be a way of avoiding the third party thing.

Next, it has come to my attention that the third party people are getting unsigned demand letters from the IRS. Is this true?

[NonEntity]

IMF=International Monetary Fund???

[marc stevens]

IMF = individual master file

I think the activity is ultimately irrelevant unless the agent knows what the IMF purports (in that case it may be used for impeachment). The activity is not what the supreme court has held is being taxed, it's the presumption of citizenship. The alleged relationship between the individual man/woman to the government. The presumption of protection is what the "liability" is based.