Super Quotes DISCUSSION thread?

[Darren Dirt]

darrendirt said:

All of these kinds of inventiveness, combined with our unique expressiveness, have empowered our communities to deal with huge classes of new situations. The previous chapters discussed many aspects of what gives people so much resourcefulness:

• We have multiple ways to describe many things—and can quickly switch among those different perspectives.
  
• We make memory-records of what we’ve done—so that later we can reflect on them.
  
• We learn multiple ways to think so that when one of them fails, we can switch to another.
  
• We split hard problems into smaller parts, and use goal-trees, plans, and context stacks to help us keep making progress.
  
• We develop ways to control our minds with all sorts of incentives, threats, and bribes.
  
• We have many different ways to learn and can also learn new ways to learn.
  
• We can often postpone a dangerous action and imagine, instead, what its outcome might be in some Virtual World.
  
• Our language and culture accumulates vast stores of ideas that were discovered by our ancestors. We represent these in multiple realms, with metaphors interconnecting them.
  
• Most every process in the brain is linked to some other processes. So, while any particular process may have some deficiencies, there will frequently be other parts that can intervene to compensate.
  

Nevertheless, our minds still have bugs ... at present, our wonderful powers to make abstractions also cause us to construct generalizations that are too broad, fail to deal with exceptions to rules, accumulate useless or incorrect information, and to believe things because our imprimers do. We also make superstitious credit assignments, in which we confuse real thing with ones that we merely imagine; then we become obsessed with unachievable goals, and set out on unbalanced, fanatical searches and quests.

- Marvin Minsky, MIT Professor, "The Emotion Machine" (Chapter 9: THE SELF)

Prof. Minsky is apparently a renowned expert in the fields of Artificial Intelligence, linguistics, communication...

I posted the above cuz I thought it really strikes at the heart of so many of our struggles in the forum... not just struggling against the lack of clarity in some of our communications, or the blindness and stubbornness of the sheeple around us, but often against our *own* "mind bugs"

Thoughts?

[eye2i2hear]

Nevertheless, our minds still have bugs ...

too bad there's not an aersol RAID or a pest control service ORKIN for such mental pesks... ;D

guess in the meanwhile we'll just have to keep using The Forum-fly-swatter~
does NonE come in an aersol version?

[NonEntity]

"too bad there's not an aersol RAID or a pest control service ORKIN for such mental pesks... "

There is. It's called meditation.

And I'm full of enough hot air that you certainly wouldn't like the aerosolized version!

- NonE

[eye2i2hear]

nonentity said:

And I'm full of enough hot air that you certainly wouldn't like the aerosolized version!
- NonE

some might say that's the "arseholeized" version rather than "aerosolized" version...

"some" (of course...)
not eye, not i~

otay, otay, so it's ye olde takes one to know one...
eye4sure ;D

[note to self: see?! told ya that "meditation" would be his pesty response!]

[NonEntity]

ROFLMAO!!!

- NonE

[sagas4]

darrendirt said:

"There will be, in the next generation or so, a pharmacological method of making people love their servitude, and producing dictatorship without tears, so to speak, producing a kind of painless concentration camp for entire societies, so that people will in fact have their liberties taken away from them, but will rather enjoy it, because they will be distracted from any desire to rebel by propaganda or brainwashing, or brainwashing enhanced by pharmacological methods. And this seems to be the final revolution."

- Aldous Huxley, Tavistock Group, California Medical School, 1961 Audio - Transcript (found at bottom of webpages at InformationLiberation.com)


Hey Al, who needs a "drug" solution when we've already got television(complete with mindless statism trumpeted 24/7)+aspartame+waterfluoridation?

Hmmmm . . . .

Can anyone say Sense Offender . . . I wonder if this is where the plot for Equilibrium came from?

[NonEntity]

Darren, that is a frighteningly powerful quote. Thanks.

- NonE

[Darren Dirt]

nonentity said:

Darren, that is a frighteningly powerful quote. Thanks.

- NonE

Yeah, he was an anarcho-communist, sure, but his rational hatred of the state was well-articulated in that essay, and I especially enjoyed the last 3 or 4 sections (pages) that listed the historical progress from freedom to statism... Sadly that kind of history lesson isn't gonna be taught in the public education camps now is it

[NonEntity]

Darren, in your post of quotes from Voltaire, you said this:

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." (compare "It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.")

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What do you mean? Who is the partenthetical quote by?

I like both of them, but am confused by the "compare" and the parens.

- NonE

[Darren Dirt]

Both are Voltaire (all of them in that post are) but I clarified things a bit now.

It would fun to make a "soundboard" with edgy quotes from Voltaire, Spooner, Butler Shaffer, Harry Browne, Robert A Heinlein, etc. and have a laptop with speakers with you -- then go to press conferences and "town hall meetings" and click the appropriate sound bite in response to whenever the polieticians' lips move. ;D

[sagas4]

darrendirt said:

...U.S. international and security policy, rooted in the structure of power in the domestic society, has as its primary goal the preservation of what we might call the 'Fifth Freedom,' understood crudely but with a fair degree of accuracy as the freedom to rob, to exploit and dominate, to undertake any course of action to ensure that existing privilege is protected and advanced."

- Noam Chomsky, demonstrating that he does, on rare occasions, actually observe and express things relatively truthfully ("The Culture of Terrorism", 1998).

Yep, Just about the same way as Ronnie Regan, claiming that Government IS the problem . . . he don't believe him own words.

What does an Anarcho-Communist look like any way, and which is the dominate part? The Anarcho or the Communist?

Oh heck now I've seen it all. I was making fun of the Chomster cause he says all these neat anarcho-capitalist things but his solution is always some authoritarian government institution so I was doin some reading on Bolsheviks . . . "The October Revolution was led by Vladimir Lenin and the Bolsheviks with the Mensheviks, Left Socialist-Revolutionaries and anarchists. It is the first official Marxist communist revolution of the twentieth century." Straight from that source of all truth Wikipedia. What? Anarchists are Left Socialist Revolutionaries that like Marxists? hmmm . . . Now I understand the Chomster ;D

[Darren Dirt]

nonentity said:

"Any form of conclusion is detrimental to perception. ... Can I have perception if I am attached to my position... ?" - J. Krishnamurti, Total Freedom, page 240

- NonE

I guess I know what book is gonna be in my next Amazon order.


Total Freedom: The Essential Krishnamurti

Essential Reading for those in search of truth, January 28, 2000
Reviewer: Chaz (Grand Forks, North Dakota USA) - See all my reviews
This presentation of Krishnamurti is the most complete to date. It contains four parts that are entitled:Early Works, Insights into Everyday Life, Life's Questions, and You are the World. The most important insight that the reader will gain is... a person does not have to become a member of any religious sect in order to gain peace of mind. J.K. asks us why we have certain fears, why are some of us so depended upon others for fulfillment?The insights presented within the book are not "teachings" in the sense of providing a system for the reader to follow. Instead, Krishnamurti asks us to question tradition and certain forms of dogmatism. I think the best analogy that could be used in describing this book would be to compare it to a mirror in which a person has to take a good hard look at his or her life, thoughts, fears, traditions, and habits. The reader is directed to look for the truth within, through observation, without any rigorous vows or monastic practices. Essential reading indeed.

[sagas4]

nonentity said:

"Any form of conclusion is detrimental to perception. ... Can I have perception if I am attached to my position... ?" - J. Krishnamurti, Total Freedom, page 240

- NonE

Can you do anything if you can't come to a conclusion so you can make a decision and move forward from there?

The key words in the Krishmintari quote is being attached to a position. In otherwords it's a process of continually questioning and evaluating. Now where have I heard that thingy about process before?

[eye2i2hear]

Capitalism and communism stand at opposite poles. Their essential difference is this:

The communist, seeing the rich man and his fine home, says:
"No man should have so much."

The capitalist, seeing the same thing, says:
"All men should have as much."

- Phelps Adams (BRILLIANT anti-socialism/communism page at the link!)

seems a Voltaire reminder here might be in order: "If you wish to discourse with me, first define your terms."

for isn't there a Statist Capitalism distinct from purist (common intent) capitalism?
and equally, isn't there a Statist Communism distinct from purist commune-ism?
[sign-ificant that we have "State Capitals" then?]

perhaps we've been Humpty Dumptied* via all the king's (2oth century) men...? as it seems men like Proudhan (ie the fore-running anarchists) saw "communism" akin to what free market voluntarists seek?

Newspeak? Communism = bad, bad, bad; Statism ("capitalism") = good. [ie State Capitals]

*Humpty Dumpty's words to Alice, along the lines of "words mean what I need them to mean"... aka politician's "terms" are not the common (communal?) people's (original) words~

perhaps both communism and capitolism have been too tainted (too "termed"/two-timed/politicized) to retain either...?
hence "voluntaryism" for free market communes aka voluntary associations, as a capitalism morph.

ps: fwiw... I find it interesting that the aenglish word "anarchy" (an-archy) comes from the root Greek word "arche"; which from my religionism days reminds me that there were "arch-angels" (greek "angelos" meaning "messengers"), that were simply the "head" angels or the "highest" messengers, the "chiefs", etc; thus "an-archy" simply is used to mean "no highest" ie no higher authority; no ("commander in) chief"; where all the government there is, is self-government aka equal in 'juris diction' (ie say of what is law).
An-Archy = No-Chief(s) = No State(s)!

then as to this aenglish "capital":

Capital [F. capital, L. capitalis capital (in
senses 1 & 2), fr. caput head. see Chief, and cf.
Capital, n.]
1. Of or pertaining to the head.
2. Having reference to, or involving, the forfeiture of the
head [as] life...
3. First in importance; chief; principal. [hence "prince"]
4. Chief, in a political sense, as being the seat of the
general government of a state or nation; as, Washington
and Paris are capital cities.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913), via dict.die.net

do we really want to be capitalists then? (either as term or word!?!)

--2i2

pss: a side-bar perhaps... but is it sign-ificant that FRN's-- as "GI" (Government Issue) --is today termed as "capital"...? Capital capital = capitalism, indeed~

[Darren Dirt]

Phelps Adams was definitely focusing on laissez faire, free market "capitalism" since "state capitalism" (i.e. corporate welfare) is based on a similar principle to communism: that COMPETITION is bad, EQUALITY (so-called) is good and thus justifies taking from the "haves" and giving to the have-nots.

In the case of corporate welfare, the "have-nots" are the businesses that would not survive if not for government intervention (whether subsidies, grants, price controls, or even 'tax breaks' -- since taxing their competitors more harshly than them would give them a 'break').


Good point though -- and Voltaire's famous quote is my life mantra. ;D


and re. the "root" of capitalism, well www.thefreedictionary.com/capitalism sez...
An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

It seems that the unqualified word means a private marketplace -- no mention of government intervention to any degree. Once qualified with "state" or "democratic" or whatever, then "capitalism" becomes quite a different beast.



something else to consider:

www.thefreedictionary.com/communism
"...a form of socialism that abolishes private ownership"

okay, so what is "socialism" then?
www.thefreedictionary.com/socialism
"Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy. a political theory advocating state ownership of industry"

encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Democratic+socialism
"Democratic socialism is a broad political movement propagating the ideals of socialism within the context of a democratic system."

www.thefreedictionary.com/democracy
"Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives."

- - -

I think that says it all -- there is no way anything based on "socialism" (whether qualified as "democratic" or "fascist"!) can be considered "capitalism".