Private Property

[NonEntity]

Since we don't have a specific thread devoted to Tharrin and I me beating each other up, I decided to create this one!

I just came across this link to a recently republished book by Hans Herman Hoppe called Economics and Ethics of Private Property

The right to private property is an indisputably valid, absolute principle of ethics, argues Hoppe, and the basis for civilizational advance. Indeed, it is the very foundation of social order itself. To rise from the ruins of socialism and overcome the stagnation of the Western welfare states, nothing will suffice but the uncompromising privatization of all socialized, that is, government, property and the establishment of a contractual society based on the recognition of private property rights.

I really like Hoppe's thinking. His book "Democracy: The God that Failed" is excellent and I highly recommend it. In it he shows that democracy must fail because of the incentives inherent within it. Just as others proved this as regards socialism.

I've not read the book above, but the quote I chose from the review seems to indicate that there are two choices, government ownership and private ownership. I wonder... Is this view too limited?

If it is, then what other possibility exists. This may be the core issue in my debate with Tharrin. All of us here on Marc's board are in agreement, or at least considering the idea, that the "state" is a fiction. Marc says that while the "state" is a fiction, government is not. I asked him for clarification on this and did not get an answer that has yet clarified my mind on this issue. But how do we deal with property which is NOT owned by individuals and also NOT owned by "the state" or government?

The "tragedy of the commons" is seemingly the result. Are we missing some other option?

Thoughts Tharrin, or anyone else?

- NonE

[sagas4]

NonE,

In regards to the State/Government stuff here's my comprehension of Marc's description of State/Government.

State = a fictional entity. i.e. a Piece of Paper.

Govern = Control ergo Govern-ment = Control-ment. This is exercised in the form of a real live group of men and women carrying guns who impose their will upon you violently. i.e. The CONTROL or GOVERNING is real. (Watch the video of the Kali-forn-ya cop shooting the AirForce SP to review).

Simply put:

State = unsigned written instruments (paper)
a.k.a. an Alter ego for . . .
Government = The actual men and women D/B/A the STATE.

[lummox]

Theres nothing wrong with fiction as long as everyone understands that it's fiction.

The problem with the state, as I see it, is that it's adherents have been more or less totally succesful in convincing people that the "state" is synonomous with reality.

There are taxes to pay for GWB's dinner, his suits and a great big helicoptor for him to swan about in. There are also taxes to pay for having your streets lit.

Remove the fiction and one set of these expenses is going to go. The other will probably remain, although it's my guess that it would be a damn sight cheaper.

------------------------------------

Stewardship is one way to ensure that "common" land and property can be looked after almost as well as by an individual, because of the responsibility inherent in such a role.

[NonEntity]

Here's a discussion about property rights from a different perspective: parking places.

- NonE

[alistair]

we haven`t really progressed from feudalism. we have kings, dictators and c.e.o.s creating and enforcing policy and there are levels of serfs that "own" property and are in some ways, corporate citizens, in that they (we ) derive our mortgage payments by way of the permission of the corporations. those who can`t own property for whatever reason are lesser in this aspect. this is the traditional class arguement of marxist politics. the struggle between the classes which he saw reason to attack.
i think we have property rights as a convenient way for us to house ourselves. kings don`t want to be in the housing business. it has been proven to be a job they`re ill suited to. besides, they`re too busy planning the next war.
my guess is iran, by the way. not because of nukes. because they are going to start selling thier oil for euros.

[marc stevens]

Pissing off the FED is a sure way to get your neighborhood bombed.

[sagas4]

alistair said:

besides, they`re too busy planning the next war.
my guess is iran, by the way. not because of nukes. because they are going to start selling thier oil for euros.

admin said:

Pissing off the FED is a sure way to get your neighborhood bombed.

There was some info runnin round the net somewhere a while back that Saddam did just that. Told the Fed to take a hike. He was going to start denominating Iraq oil in euros.

Keep in mind this is an unverified rumor but I wouldn't be surprised if it were true.

[eye2i2hear]

my two cents worth...
first noting, I'm jumping in mid-stream (meaning, I've not read many other posts/threads as to this topic/debate of property)

then, as to the distinction twixt "state" and "government", for me an old wise saying comes to play: "As a man thinks, so he is."
Where logic (?) then deduces: "As men think, so they are."...?!
thus, "The State" is simply "the state of mind"-- collectively "united" (United States)
it's the men-think. (men = humanity)
The State's "man"infestation (manifestation/manifest-nation) is basically those thoughts in union acted upon; lived out; the proverb's "so he is" ("so they are")
"e pluribus unum"... "out of the many, one": mindset; one STATE
The Government then is the united mind-set's authorization/empowerment/enablement to "man"ifest. What you see is what men thought. And think. Reality (spirit/mind) meets Actuality (body/nature).

Now, as to this "property right", I must admit, I'm in a "state" of quandry presently. This basically comes from a cursory reading of Thomas Paine on the subject and a present plowing (and that it takes!) of this work: "What is Property? An Inquiry into the Principle of Right and of Government" by Pierre Joseph Proudhon. [find it online here:
etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/ProProp.html ] This today, sounds as radical as The Spirit of '76 did then, to my ear... to my "thinking", as to property "rights".

I think (again noting my having just jumped in mid-stream) I agree with alistair, as I think (ditto) we agree with Proudhon & Paine; we've not progressed in Liberty as to property (claim) and simply presently still have fuedal tyranny (called "democracy"), where "the majority rule" (United States/Nations of Minds) is simply "the man" (tyrant). Yet if I understand it correctly (have the right state of mind), ANY claim to private ownership* is yet another degree of "king" thought; feudal (selfish) thinking...??

For me presently then, this takes us right back to our basic issue: "As we think, so it is." If we've not thought property properly, we'll not properly ("rightly") manifest "Life, Liberty, and property".
I've often pondered why America's "founding fathers" changed "Life, Liberty, and property", as the up to that point phraseology, to "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness". Perhaps there was awakening amongst some even then, as to this biz of Lochean "property rights" that warranted it?! Perhaps Paine's influence as to other aspects of The Revelation that led to The Revolution, were finding seed-bed...

As with so much that matters in Life (as to happiness!) there is often the "ideal" versus the "reality" (more accurately perhaps, the "actuality"). Property "rights" then being such a "matter". Regardless, it begins with the state of mind, always.
May our claim always be the right (good) claim, and never the "right" of kings. (where it's first come, first claim; claim of right backed by claim of might**)

[*note, fwiw: the only true unalienable property "right" we each have, as to sovereignty/ownership, is our physical ("dust to dust") body; all else is equal (access, at least as to "right"); Proudhon's analogy of an island seems to clearly establish it as "so"; how we "flesh it out" from sea to shining sea is not quite so clear! But in another day, neither was "individual sovereignty" ie Liberty either?!]

** for the christian/religious among us, who has not noted this very position of "owning nothing"...?!? oh, yeah, that's "spiritual"; "new" testament is now "old" testament... r-i-g-h-t....

[NonEntity]

Eye2i2hear,

Welcome! Good to have you aboard. Interesting post.

- NonE

[lummox]

Saddam DID drop the dollar.

observer.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,896344,00.html

Iran is ABOUT to drop the dollar -

www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/GH26Dj01.html

And the fed is ABOUT to stop releasing figures about monetary supply -

www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h6/discm3.htm

english.pravda.ru/world/20/91/368/16741_dollar.html

[alistair]

coin of the realm. dollars used to be backed by gold. now it`s all promissary notes backed up by the future efforts of our bodies.............fiat currency.
and regarding our soveriegnty of our bodies, i would rethink that in the light of the draft, euthanasia, ingestion of certain substances and choice of medical treatments etc.
i hate like hell to be pessimistic but more war is pretty much the only way to continue to prop up our consumer lifestyle. unless the euro goes into the tipper or the chinese want to underwrite some of our debt....................(buy more bonds)

[lazerwood]

...war is pretty much the only way to continue to prop up our consumer lifestyle.

I'll repeat one of my "sayings"...

Whatever has been built on a faulty foundation eventually and inevitably collapses.

[marc stevens]

FRN's are not promissory notes. And I think I speak for everyone Alistair, is the shift key on your keyboard busted? ;D

[judgemental]

admin said:

And I think I speak for everyone Alistair, is the shift key on your keyboard busted? ;D

Do you think CAPITAL punishment is called for ?

[NonEntity]

aLISTAIR mistook his shift key for a cow bell and that was the last note it rang. :-)

- NonE