Just How Deep Does The Rabbit Hole Really Go?

[NonEntity]

Darren, I tend to agree that the Intellectual Property Rights issue is a can of worms and appears to me to cause more harm than good. So let's not debate that. I WOULD like to point out that Galambos will change your view of the world, probably VERY significantly. Read the reviews of the book.

One of the profound things that I learned from him is that Freedom is not something to be fought for. He likens it to a product. It, like a car or a toaster or computer, is NOT something that naturally occurs. It is an idea. It is a product of the human mind, and as such must be constructed. No one ever "fought" for a car to be created where there was none before. A car had to be thought about, designed, built, refined, and this process continues. Freedom is the same. If we are to HAVE freedom we must conceive of what that means, and then figure out a way to make it happen.

I do have a few minor disagreements with Galambos, but for the most part I think that his reasoning is beyond reproach. His ideas are HUGE and it is a shame that they have not gone farther than they have so far.

- NonE

P.S. People talk about how reading Atlas Shrugged changed their lives. I do believe that reading Galambos changed mine as much or more than Ayn Rand did.

[Darren Dirt]

One of the reviews on Amazon (for either the full course, or for that 120 page paperback, I can't remember which -- say, is that paperback a good "summary" introduction?) said that Rand was inspirational to him, but that Galambos actually offered solutions that seemed viable, etc.

The one thing I've concluded, really over the past few months only, is that the absolutely most important thing is that the MINDSET of people is changed FIRST -- Einstein said something about the same thinking that caused a problem in the first place, etc.

Well, it's true. If we argue about details, but have conflicting underlying beliefs about the morality of coercive violence and non-consensual controlling of others, then we'll never have anything close to a "society" of voluntaryists. We need, of course, to help convert those "libertarians" who believe political methods are an acceptable "halfway" solution (or even goal, which is what both Rand and Heinlein seemed to believe, i.e. "minarchism") so they can see that the total extreme is not just possible, but absolutely necessary to be logically consistent with true liberty.

Far too many of the left- and right-wing pundits and faithful followers are so comfortable, that they'll just agree with or argue against whichever republicrat or democon is in "power"... But if we win over their MINDS, well guess what, nobody in "power" will be a satisfactory "compromise". It ain't for me -- and I used to believe very strongly in "conservativism", i.e. government forcing "my" morality on the poor deluded "liberals".

Be patient, folks, we're in a very special time in history, I feel it, heck deep down inside I *KNOW* it! ;D

[NonEntity]

The paperback (summary) sucks. Go for the whole hog... pig out!

- NonE

[sagas4]

"If I have seen further than other men, it is because I have stood upon the shoulders of giants." - Sir Isaac Newton in referring to expanding upon the ideas ans discoveries of others who came before him.

DD,
After having listened to Pastor Massad's intro I would have to say that I believe we have been cursed with the old chinese blessing, "may you live in interesting times"; however for some reason I feel stoked!

NonE,

I read the reviews on Amazon. You are correct Galambos is a must read, Thanks for the heads up! BTW the LaFerve essay is most inspiring too.

FEMA & National Guard:
Here's some pics from some recent Tornado damage. I have some family in there somewhere. I couldn't get in because FEMA and National guard are "keeping looters out". I'd just as soon let'em in so they can take the stuff then we won't have to clean up but I'll be headed out shortly. They are suppose to be leaving this weekend then I can get in without providing ID, signing forms, and needing a permit to be on my own property. Jerkwads!

[Darren Dirt]

sagas4 said:

I read the reviews on Amazon. You are correct Galambos is a must read, Thanks for the heads up! BTW the LaFerve essay is most inspiring too.

(IMHO) That essay is more than just "inspiring"... I printed it out so I can take my time digesting its richness. It's like 30 pages (I printed 2 pages per sheet so it's 15 sheets therefore staple-able) -- and I think before I got to the 2nd sheet I was already singing out loud to my brother the praises of this essay...

Sometimes you can just tell something is in the top 1 percentile of its class, and I felt this way by paragraph #3, the same way I felt within the first page of Rothbard's "Education: Free and Compulsory"... Or AiLL of course ;D

Maybe I'll design a Freedom Course that uses the LaFevre essay and Rothbard and AiLL as materials, do some "Socratic Method" teaching/sharing, etc... I've heard that people think something is more valuable if they have to pay for it rather than just being given it for free


PS: Sorry to hear disaster is striking so close to home -- hopefully the "act of God" remains as such, and isn't exasperated by "acts of men" (i.e. FEMA etc. saying "no" to assistance, turning back donations, etc.)

[denizen]

When taking Galambos early courses we did not have any non-disclosure contract. I am not sure at which point this aspect appeared?

It is my understanding that once the course reached print the students were free to speak. This currently applies only to the basic course and will apply to V-201 if/when it achieves published status

[denizen]

Audio archives of LeFevre can be found at www.mises.org/media.aspx?action=showname&ID=529

[Darren Dirt]

denizen said:

Audio archives of LeFevre can be found at www.mises.org/media.aspx?action=showname&ID=529

Some great, brief lectures

Communication About Freedom is at the top of the list, and after about 5 minutes of him getting in the "zone", it's a VERY valuable summary of the basics of what makes "good communication" -- while listening to it I found myself applying the concepts in my mind to my past experiences (good and bad) as well as current challenges. ;D

Very entertaining and news-to-me was
Lady Godiva: Uncovering the Facts About Tax Reform -- www.mises.org/mp3/lefevre/204.mp3

- - -

I think I know what audio I'll now have playing in the background for the next few weeks whenever I play City Of Heroes

[Darren Dirt]

...my apologies for MY part in making this thread go way off topic ;D

Here's some nicely-laid-out sites that help with the SOLUTION...

www.non-voters.org/

www.libertygrid.org/

www.econgov.org/
Welcome to the Economic Government Group! We're an informal organization of those advocating economic government, our term for the rejection of the state in favor of a society based solely on voluntary institutions. Economic government is also known as voluntaryism and anarcho-capitalism. Economic government might also be characterized as libertarianism taken to its logical conclusion, and thus we could also accurately be called libertarians who have the courage of our convictions.

[Darren Dirt]

more "solution"?

Antistatism: An Eye for an Eye

...although I dislike the "eye for an eye" metaphor (since some famous dude said it leaves the whole world blind) I think below is a pretty good
summary of what a voluntary, anarcho-capitalist "society" would be like, broken down into categories for easy digesting and/or promoting to your statist friends... in bite sized pieces, I dare recommend

Antistatism: An Eye for an Eye


Clarification:

All "words inside quotation marks" mean that those words were used "for lack of a better word."

Summary Of Political Ideology (Autonomy):

Decision Making:

- No government exists to make decisions for the Antistate (as a single entity) or the people within it.
- Territorial, professional, and trade resolutions are made through free agreements between individuals or groups of individuals out of necessity.
- Every individual or group of individuals in the Antistate can make free contracts (agreements) with any other individual or group of individuals anywhere. This is not an "ensured right," but a necessary means of survival.
- The "free agreements" or "contracts" are open-ended arrangements (not written binding deals). They provide services or produce (material items) in return for services or produce between individuals or groups of individuals.
- Example of a contract: Farmer Joe will give one third of his crop to Doctor Bob if Doctor Bob takes care of all Farmer Joe's medical concerns.
- The contracts can be created, altered, or ended at any time.

Political Rights:

- There are no restrictions (no law, government, police, prisons, etc.)regulating what an individual can or cannot do in the Antistate. The individual has complete and total freedom.
- This absolute liberty creates a balance that reacts with, and counteracts every action in the Antistate.
- Example of balance of action: Farmer Joe breaks both his legs. Doctor Bob takes half Farmer Joe's crop and refuses to set Farmer Joe's broken legs. Farmer Joe either dies (unable to do anything) or makes contracts with Butch Thug and Orthopedic Surgeon Mary for protection and care.
- Anyone can believe anything and say anything they please in the Antistate, but nobody has to listen.
- Anyone can leave or enter the Antistate.
- Political dissent is useless, an individual may try to implement a "true" political system, but with few followers this is futile.

Minority Rights:

- Once an individual is within the Antistate they have the complete freedom to do anything despite who the individual is.
- It is impossible to "be a citizen" of the Antistate, this requires the recognition of an absent government.

Leaders & Government Involvement In Society:

- To clarify: The government is nonexistent, therefore it cannot have any leaders and cannot involve itself with anything.
- If any social leaders (religious, etc.) arise (such as Ghandi) the extent of their "power" is limited to the number of individuals that choose to follow them.

Education And Professionals:

- As previously said, services are a commodity for barter, the more rare the service, the more desired it becomes.
- Education is a valuable service; those people being taught are trading other items and services to the person who is educating them.
- Services (medical, construction, just about anything, etc.) are given in exchange for items or other services.
- The more educated one becomes in a trade (skill), the more they can rely on their knowledge to provide goods and services for them.
- Education is a key tool in teaching people to survive independently.

Defence Of Political Ideology:

Major Advantages Of Antistatism (Autonomy):

Equality: Every person in the Antistate has equal opportunity. Since individual rights are absolute and unconditional in the Antistate, anybody can do anything. The same opportunities are available to everybody, and the ultimate goal of society is constant, survival.

Autonomy: It may seem that in our "democracy" we have almost complete freedom, this is not true. In Canada, there is a modest document (Bill of Rights) that attempts to "guarantee" the Canadian public a certain set of rights and freedoms. There is another document (the written law) that contains thousands upon thousands of restrictions and regulations placed on Canadian citizens. In short, there are more things we cannot do than things that we can do. Not only are we restricted in what we can do, we can also have our remaining rights involuntary removed (arrests and imprisonment, minors have few rights, questionable mental faculties, etc.). Finally, we pay (taxes) for the privilege of having our rights taken away. It's not a big secret that police, lawyers, and politicians cost money. These problems are avoided in the Antistate where the legal system, government, and law enforcement are forsaken.

Individualism & Collectivism: In the world today there are few who could survive completely independent of others. This is a basic principle of Antistatism. Within the Antistate an individual is free to be just that, an individual. The individual is bound by no laws other than necessity to merge with others. If an individual is forced to join others for any reason, the person loses their identity as an individual and becomes a group entity. The loss of individual identity and merger into a group entity forces unnecessary restrictions on the person, hindering progress. Necessity draws the individuals together (collects ividuals) and drives them to work for the good of each other, themselves included. From these mutual junctions of distinct individuals in an immense collection, progress is spawned. There is no other society, but the Antistate, in which an individual can work progressively with others and not lose their distinct identity.

Attacks On Antistatism:

Attack #1: "Wouldn't the stronger people take advantage of the weaker people? How can this be justified?"

Defence #1: Yes, the stronger, faster, and smarter people would take advantage of the weaker people. There is nothing wrong with this. Those people most capable of survival will live and develop and have children with the same characteristics of survival. The weak will be weeded out, sometimes by the strong and sometimes by the environment, and the weak characteristics that they possess will disappear from mankind. In this way, human beings will progress naturally as organisms, and socially as more hardy beings capable of independent survival. It is only within the last hundred years that human beings have become the only organisms to deviate from this natural state of things.

Attack #2: "What would stop another country from invading the Antistate and claiming all the territory?"

Defence #2: As was stated before, very few people are capable of independent survival. Therefore the individuals make contracts out of necessity for various things such as nourishment, shelter, and protection. One of the most common contracts that would arise among the people would be those of defence. In return for some commodity or service, protection would be given to the providing individual. Enough of these contracts would give way to a huge, self-governing army protecting each other, benefiting everybody.

Attack #3: "If the Antistate isn't really a state, how can it have political borders?"

Defence #3: If the Antistate can keep other countries from claiming it's territory, then the borders of the Antistate are defined as any territory unclaimed by any country.

Summary Of Economic Ideology (Private Enterprise):

Position On Economic Spectrum:

- The economic system in the Antistate is similar to extreme capitalism.
- State enterprise, state involvement in the economy, and taxation is impossible without a state and therefore absent in the Antistate.
- There is no currency; there is no state to produce it, and no need to represent large amounts of items.


Production:

- Everyone produces (for themselves) what is needed for survival and any "luxury items" desired.
- Anything needed or desired by an individual (which the individual cannot produce) is taken from or traded for with goods or services with other individuals.
- It is foolish to produce excess amounts (more than is needed for comfortable survival) of goods unless they are to be used for trade.
- "Disposable income" (meaning excess "luxury items") depends on how hard the individual in question works to produce or trade for it.

Classless Society:

- Everyone has the same job, to get what is needed for survival (there are many means of doing this).
- Without currency it is difficult to determine who is rich and who isn't (a monetary value cannot be given).
- The "winners" (in an economic sense) are those who get what they need to survive and get the "luxury items" they want.
- The "average" person gets what they need to survive plus a few "luxury items." - The "loser" dies, unable to get what is needed for survival.
- Education is essential to maintain a "profitable" lifestyle.

Social Problems (If the Antistate is installed somewhere in the modern world):

- Poverty would run rampant until all those who could not learn to survive independently quickly enough are dead.

- Crime would become commonplace until it becomes unprofitable (why murder the only doctor in town, etc.).

- An extreme drop would occur in the economy for a long period until the above points are resolved.

Defence Of Economic Ideology:

Major Advantages Of Private Enterprise:

Liberty: Within a system of complete private enterprise, a person has the greatest possible amount of freedom to produce anything they want to (or nothing). Also, they can trade for (or take) any items they choose. An individual has the independence to pursue any activity they prefer (no working nine to five). You can take a vacation, give yourself a raise, or take that BMW anytime!

No Taxes, No Welfare: Who can argue with such a fine idea? No taxes, no welfare. No welfare means those who cannot or will not produce die. The people who need welfare die, the problem is erased. Great idea!

No Excess: The greatest amount of items being produced are those that people need. Producing these items requires time, effort and materials. Therefore, nothing is being produced and not used. The system becomes tailored to the needs of society, those who produce what everyone needs will be successful.

Attacks On Private Enterprise:

Attack #1: "You claimed earlier that all people in the Antistate would be equal. How can this be so when some people are bound to be better at producing things that everybody needs?"

Defence #1: What was claimed earlier was that all people in the Antistate have equal opportunities. Yes, some people will be "more successful" than others by producing things that everyone needs. There is a healthy balance created in private enterprise where the "winners" end up producing necessary things and get what they need while the "losers" produce plastic cows or fuzzy dice and end up with nothing. If everyone ends up producing the same vital, but now abundant item, it is only logical that some of them will get "business" while others won't. The others who aren't getting any "business" either find new items to produce or become "losers."

Attack #2: "How can you possibly leave those people who cannot produce without any assistance? It's inhumane to let them just die."

Defence #2: If you want to take care of them, you can do it, but to force me to do it is equally inhumane. Those people who cannot survive should die. They carry genetic traits (blindness for instance) that will pass on if they reproduce. I am in no way advocating that we should go out and destroy these people (nature does that just fine), I'm just saying to go out of our way and do the surviving for them is unnatural. This is another self- correcting problem that will take care of itself if left alone in a natural state.

Attack #3: "How do I stop Butch Thug or Sid Crook from stealing my BMW?"

Defence #3: Either let your BMW get stolen, or get a big gun and defend it. An eye for an eye. Why do we need cops when we can do the job better?

Rationale Behind Political/Economic Combination:

The ideology of Antistatism is the combination of three distinct political ideologies and two economic ideologies: democracy, anacro-communism, autonomy, private enterprise and capitalism. These ideologies express freedom for the people. Their merger into one system provides freedom in a plausible form.

Antistatism is the best possible 21st century ideology. Marx and Lenin have both claimed that final stage in a perfectly evolved society is autonomy. That is what the Antistate is, a perfectly evolved society. Within it is found independent, autonomous individuals who are producing and progressing to the benefit of everyone. The self-governing people are completely free to persue their personal goals and ideals within the confines of their survival. Without a government, there are no problems arising from powerful leaders, apathetic politicians and of course, no taxes. Let the people control themselves and the people will be content.

If government exists to serve the people, and it doesn't do this, then it doesn't work. When something doesn't work, you either fix it, or rid yourself of it for good.



Bibliography:

Alinsky, Saul D. 1972. Rules For Radicals. Vintage Books (Random House Inc.) Cohen, Carl, ed. 1972. Communism, Fascism, And Democracy: The Theoretical Foundations. Random House Inc.

Dalton, George. 1974. Economic Systems & Society. Penguin Books Ltd.

Jacker, Corinne. 1968. The Black Flag Of Anarchy. Charles Scribner's Sons.

Laski, Harold J. 1955. "Anarchism." Encyclopedia Britannica. Ed. Walter Yust. vol. 1. William Benton. pp. 873-878.

Lehning, Arthur. 1968. "Anarchism." Dictionary Of The History Of Ideas: Studies Of Selected Pivotal Ideas. vol. 1. Charles Scribner's Sons. pp. 70-76.

Lenin, Vladimir. 1916. Imperialism, The Highest Stage Of Capitalism. Progress Publishers

Lenin, Vladimir. "State And Revolution." Essential Works Of Marxism. Ed. Arthur P. Mendel. Bantam Books, Inc. pp. 103-198.

Stalin, Joseph. "The Foundations Of Leninism." Essential Works Of Marxism. Ed. Arthur P. Mendel. Bantam Books, Inc. pp. 209-296.

Ward, Colin. 1973. Anarchy In Action. Harper & Row, Publishers.

From: web.archive.org/web/20050210082053/www.totse.com/en/politics/anarchism/antigvt1.html

[Darren Dirt]

An especially good list of links to videos, among other things -- the "most important..." one at the top is emotionally inspiring

www.freepressinternational.com/911.html

[sagas4]

This is a must see video for those that still believe. It is 1 hr 21 min and change.

It is one of the better edited narrated and questioning videos I have seen on the WTC issue. If one still believes terrorists hijacked planes and flew them into the buildings after watching this then they are brain dead.

911 Loose Change 2nd Edition with extra footage.

[marc stevens]

Thanks for the link sagas, that's a good one. I should also link that on my home page.

[marc stevens]

Someone should download that video as an mpg, I would, but I don't have enough hardrive space. If some could, download it, burn it to a CD and send it to me, I'll post it on my web site.

[lazerwood]

Sagas wrote:

If one still believes terrorists hijacked planes and flew them into the buildings after watching this then they are brain dead.


---------------------------------------------------

If you want read a thread on a forum familiar to users on this board, check out these "9-11" comments.

These clueless folk are bashing someone just trying to get them to consider that there may be an alternative view.

Basically the mindset on that forum is that you must be some sort of:

bed-wetting
commie-pinko
peace-loving
draft-dodging
pot-smoking
flag-burning
hippie with
long-hair,
freaky
type person to even question the "conventional wisdom"...and if you DARE to come around here we'll bust your head!

forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37057&page=2