heidi
Junior Member
first, a peaceful heart
Posts: 82
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Post by heidi on Apr 8, 2007 18:12:10 GMT -5
I have a long standing interest in alternate value exchange systems, so have followed closely the development of "Islamic" banking establishments hereabouts, in hope of a solution to the problems we currently face. You might be fascinated (or disappointed, as I was) to learn that while so-called "Sharia'a" banks go all-out to avoid the appearance (sound familiar?!) of engaging in "Al-Riba Bi-Ainih" ("Riba," or "renting money," i.e., charging interest on loans), the facts reveal that it's just more legal trickery of the sort we're well accustomed to. A true Shari'aa contract is a partnership involving profit-sharing. The wisdom of this kind of arrangement is profound, entailing a deeper personal involvement and terms far simpler than any 'bank' 'loan' document you or I have seen. A fine resource for study and reference is the website of the periodical Islami Finance ( http://www.islamic-finance.com). Here ( www.islamic-finance.com/item100_f.htm is a banking scholar's lament, written a few years ago by the Muslim financial analyst and I-F editor Tarek El Diwany. The quotations he appends to his article may ring a number of old familiar bells.  An excerpt: Today, at least 91% of UK money supply is manufactured by the banking system. State money supply is £30 billion, bank money supply is at least £300 billion. Even if the banking system charged a clear 20% interest on the whole £30 billion, it still could not generate sufficient revenue to survive. Hence it has manufactured an extra £300 billion on which it can charge interest.
An Islamic bank is no different. It must partake in the money creation business. And it must therefore fix its financial rate of return at the outset in most of its business. That's why Islamic banking cannot succeed in being Islamic. At least, not in the way that we understand the terms 'banking' and 'Islamic' today.
It gets worse. Because the banks create money by agreeing new loans, society must be in constant debt to the banks by an amount approximately equivalent to the total of a nation's money supply. But when the banks create money, they do not create the money needed to repay the loan plus the interest charge. The loans that the banks make are therefore unrepayable.
. . .
We must somehow overturn the monetary system as it is. And that will require us to defeat the monster that faces us.
Some of our scholars have yet to recognise the monster for what it is. They think of the banking system as a necessary part of economic activity. They do not connect the deaths of millions of children in Africa every year with the burden of debt repayments to the banks (the United Nations Development Programme's annual Human Development Reports 1997 - 1999 do show this connection). We need a payment transmission system, a safekeeping service, and investment advisory services. To all these things, yes. To money creation for the sake of profit, no.
================ I highly recommend his lectures, many of which are linked for download via the "About Us" selection. Got other ideas on alt-banking? Swoop on in! |
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Post by lummox2 on Apr 8, 2007 20:01:25 GMT -5
The problem with creating a viable alt banking system is simple, and is threefold. Once these three problems are overcome it will be simple to do.
Heres what has to be avoided for a viable alt banking system to work -
1) Not going to jail.
2) Not dying.
3) Not becoming the banksters replacement.
Which isn't so bad, actually. because the main problem with banking is fiat money. No fiat money, no banks.
To remove fiat money we merely need to convince the majority of the western hemisphere that using violence to solve day to day affairs is wrong. We'll get there eventually, the truth isn't going anywhere.
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Post by NonEntity on Apr 8, 2007 20:03:56 GMT -5
Heidi, You may enjoy going here. I subscribe to the email list and find it interesting. I also read (and posted several messages about) a book on Islamic banking a while back. I found the ideas very interesting. I don't have it in the front of my mind at the moment, but can come up with it if you want.... - NonE |
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Post by lummox2 on Apr 11, 2007 14:45:51 GMT -5
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Post by dentistsugardust on Apr 11, 2007 14:53:48 GMT -5
the combined military expenditures of All the the worlds governments in 1987, was so large that all the of the united nations social programs could be financed for 300 years.
as heard in a Tsarion seminar
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Post by NonEntity on Apr 11, 2007 15:08:26 GMT -5
I'd be hard pressed to try and figure which of those phrases I find more repulsive, "military expenditures" or "united nations social programs!"
- NonE
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Post by Darren Dirt on Apr 11, 2007 16:52:18 GMT -5
definitely the "social programs" -- since "military expenditures" are denounced as unjustifiable by a vocal anti-war minority, whereas both "right" and "left" alike think *some* kind of "do what the U.N. sez" social programs are necessary, and therefore justiable at any cost (or at least, at violation-of-natural-rights cost) Haven't watched the vids yet, but scrolled down and found "a conversation with Mr. Ron Supinski of the Public Information Department of the San Francisco Federal Reserve Bank", WOW I can't believe how candid this FedRes goon was... and how f'ed up the rest of his day musta been, so much to think about...  |
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Post by lummox2 on Apr 11, 2007 18:25:33 GMT -5
I've had pretty much the same conversation with a Mr. Beaton of the Bank of England, as well as various employees of the bank I used to loan my money to. "It doesn't matter if we make no loss" is one priceless gem I was told.
They are very candid usually, and it's because they don't see anything wrong with what they do - it's "business as usual". I imagine it's rather like pointing out to a soldier that they kill people or something......."Well, duuuh!"
The original fraud is almost unknown to people but word is spreading*. Without the internet, almost no one would know.
*Recently our banks have been taking a pounding as people learned about the common law right to only pay for "losses" - which they have used to claim years of "bank charges" back. So close, and so far away.
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Post by Darren Dirt on Apr 11, 2007 18:31:24 GMT -5
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Post by sagas4 on Apr 12, 2007 22:34:05 GMT -5
"This [Federal Reserve Act] establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the President [Wilson} signs this bill, the invisible government of the monetary power will be legalized....the worst legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by this banking and currency bill." - Charles A. Lindbergh, Sr. , 1913 “The few who understand the system, will either be so interested from it's profits or so dependant on it's favors, that there will be no opposition from that class.” - Rothschild Brothers of London, 1863 And here is an interesting primer on the history for those that don't understand. I have used it before as an intro and then after a few days have some good conversations with people. |
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Post by damageinc on Apr 12, 2007 23:26:26 GMT -5
I like gold an silver, It's real, it has a 3000 + year track record and it will always be worth something. What was it that Von Messis said ,gubberments are the only (mentol) insitutions that can take a camodity like paper,put some ink on it and make it totally worthless.
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heidi
Junior Member
first, a peaceful heart
Posts: 82
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Post by heidi on Apr 14, 2007 10:28:51 GMT -5
Thanks for the links, guys ~ I'll be reading/viewing them. Because I enjoy being able to purchase a product from a merchant in Indonesia without carrying my gold over there and carrying the products back, I think the service of banking is splendid. Instead of "bank" we could say Value Exchange System or Value Storage System or Guys Who Hold My Beans So I Don't Have To Wear Such A Big Backpack ... but I'll stick with 'bank' even though the term is loaded with horror. Take away all the hypothecating and defrauding, and we see that banking fits into the voluntary society beautifully. It can be an exceedingly profitable enterprise simply by charging fees for services rendered, just like any other business. This is the central tenet of what Islamic banking is meant to do. Look at E-gold, as one of the oldest examples of an online value storage/exchange medium. Drawbacks in that particular model: - Out-exchange/in-exchange must be done through some other firm; - In-exchange is way easy, but out-exchange (bailment in metal, or conversion to FRNs) gets mighty tricky. These OE/IE companies, once the FEDsters discover they're operating, are heavily pressured to collect and "share" their customers' personal ID data including SINs, and usually pushed out of business when they don't COMPLY. See for example the emocorp development, which was initially brilliant. However, more and more info was required from customers ... to the point that privacy was utterly compromised so with the much higher cost than trad-banking, what's the point?? and customers started looking elsewhere. The problems of fraud among the fly-by-night Internet alt-bank arrangements continue because so many men and women are so desperate to free themselves from this invasive financial tyranny. The customer base is there. When the first online branch of Voluntaryist Bank opens its site doors, I'll have a fight (lol) to be first in line. |
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heidi
Junior Member
first, a peaceful heart
Posts: 82
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Post by heidi on Apr 14, 2007 10:35:28 GMT -5
NonE, I would indeed like to know which book on Islamic banking you found interesting. Most appreciated! |
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heidi
Junior Member
first, a peaceful heart
Posts: 82
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Post by heidi on Apr 14, 2007 10:41:09 GMT -5
The problem with creating a viable alt banking system is simple, and is threefold. Once these three problems are overcome it will be simple to do. Heres what has to be avoided for a viable alt banking system to work - 1) Not going to jail. 2) Not dying. 3) Not becoming the banksters replacement.Which isn't so bad, actually. because the main problem with banking is fiat money. No fiat money, no banks. To remove fiat money we merely need to convince the majority of the western hemisphere that using violence to solve day to day affairs is wrong. We'll get there eventually, the truth isn't going anywhere. 4. Not getting your business either diluted, co-opted, or outright ripped out from under ya. Another point: Friends have complained about the fees involved in in-exchange and out-exchange from these systems. A. Banks in many other countries charge similar fees. The 'free checking' thing over here is but an "exchange" for total data mining and financial control. B. If the govsters could be shunted out and voluntary commerce regain its ascendancy, competition would soon have its effect on fees. The very best services would cost more than the minimal ones, and there'd be a host of firms to choose from. just me, dreamin' ag'in..... |
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Post by NonEntity on Apr 14, 2007 11:11:45 GMT -5
NonE, I would indeed like to know which book on Islamic banking you found interesting. Most appreciated! at $136 !!! It's called "The Problem with Interest," and I purchased it a year or two ago and bought it from the publisher, I think. I got it from England and it cost me about $36 including the postage from London. Perhaps some investigation will turn up a better source than that one copy on Amazon. - NonE P. S. Here is a more direct link to a site about the book. |
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