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Post by NonEntity on Apr 9, 2006 12:55:58 GMT -5
Just because I like to cause trouble and generally incite mayhem, I submit the following blogpost into the stream of energy discussion. Let the flaming begin! Let me also state for the record, that rather than seeing the price of oil and gas going through the roof, what I see is that the value of the dollar is dropping rapidly down the exit course of the toilet. - NonE |
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Post by sagas4 on Apr 9, 2006 21:37:02 GMT -5
Just because I like to cause trouble and generally incite mayhem, I submit the following blogpost into the stream of energy discussion. Let the flaming begin! Let me also state for the record, that rather than seeing the price of oil and gas going through the roof, what I see is that the value of the dollar is dropping rapidly down the exit course of the toilet. - NonE It's difficult to flame something you agree with but since you asked for it consider yourself flamed !  |
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Post by sagas4 on Apr 9, 2006 22:17:33 GMT -5
Dear Fellow Adventurers, The above link from Sagas4 on "bio-pass process " reminds me of the story of the farmer and the traveling salesman. The salesman told the farmer that he had a sure-fire way to cut feed costs and would share it for a fair sum. The farmer thought about it for a moment and replied that he had an idea to cure the salesman's horse from slobbering so bad. Since the salesman was concerned about his image and all he agreed that both of them would write their secret on pieces of paper and they would exchange them. The farmer opened his to read "The secret to cutting feed costs is mix some sawdust in the feed. The more sawdust added, the more savings!" As the salesman rode away, he read his paper: "Cure your horse of slobbering, teach it to spit." Certainly, if one adds enough diesel to vegetable oil it will burn regardless of whether it passes through "magic" 'accusorb beads' as long as it is clean, in my experience. I am still a novice on bio-diesel (300+ gallons made), but the 50 cent a gallon material cost is bearable as I work toward conversion to straight veg. oil use. Thanks for all of y'alls interesting posts. Yeoman The caller from the Apr 6/ Show I presume from the name? Welcome aboard. Thanks for the post and hopefully you will have more to share!  I'm sure we all look forward to your participation. I have posted links to things Me and some friends are either experimenting with, plan to, or looks interesting from our research. If you have information or links of interest you don't mind sharing with the class please feel free to post. About the post quoted above: It would make sense that if you mix enough of any accelerant with any other semi-flammable material that it will combust. We have not experimented with or used the acusorb beads nor WVO yet. We've mixed Diesel (no 2) with used motor oil and heavier residual fuel oil as these are fairly clean to begin with compared to WVO. We've had fun making lots-o smoke thus far Do you use WVO and do you use any method to extract the lipids from the WVO or simply filter particulates mix with #2 and burn it? Curious cause some folks claim the lipids and other fatty acids that have precipitated into the oil from cooking of the foods will damage the engine and fuel system. (As for the Ethanol, NonE had posted a link to a study done by 2 guys saying that basically agree with your position that it is not efficient to produce. The issue there is that these are typically the only 2 guys cited when that statement is made. There's plenty other folks actually doing it, and plenty of studies showing the efficiency. If it were not efficient then how does Brazil do it? They found a productive use for all the waste sugar cane that would have been produced making sugar anyway). Comments, scientific studies, your personal experience is appreciated. In a system where division of labor generates efficiency because individuals can focus talents in a specific area rather than trying to do it all, it may not be most productive for a single family farmer to grow the crop, take a portion and convert it to fuel. Making the mash, running the still, etc., I think would be inefficient. |
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yeoman
Junior Member
Posts: 73
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Post by yeoman on Apr 11, 2006 5:54:22 GMT -5
Dear Sagas4
An accurate presumption on your part.
I am using spent tortilla chip (canola) oil, preheating to dewater in a 55 gal. barrel, mixing methanol and lye in a 5 gal. jug, processing in a discarded water heater, let set over night, wash and bubble in another 55 gal. barrel, drying in yet another 55, filtering through 10 micron and hydosorb filters on the way into my '97 Dodge Cummins. I usually make a 24 gallon batch every couple of days.
There was an article in the most recent FARM SHOW magazine on a company out of CO selling Detroit Diesel/boxcar refr. generator combos that were modifyed to run on just about anything incl. waste trans. fluid. Very simple, long lasting off grid power at a reasonable ($5000) price. All you need is the cheap fuel source.
I am not familiar with the specifics of Brazil's processing. Do they use spent("waste") cane or fresh, unused? My gut feeling as a farmer well acquainted with the horrendous cultural practices of most row crop farming is that sustainable growing of a crop for fuel manufacturing is wishful thinking. Now waste product useage is another matter.
With all due respect,efficiency is such a loaded word. As Wendel Berry has so cogently pointed out, fragmentation can be "efficient" on a certain level but is it right?
What I am striving for is wholeness, which may not necessarily be the "e" word. The nice thing about my biodiesel setup is that I can work on other things around the farm (food production) while also working on it (fuel prod'n).
Thanks for the welcome and interest. I look forward to your reply.
Yours,
Yeoman
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Post by sagas4 on Apr 11, 2006 10:56:45 GMT -5
Yeoman
I have heard of the generators you speak of but never seen one up close nor for sale. I get Farm World and haven't seen an ad in there for the company you speak of. Do you have some contact information or a website perhaps?
When I was a kid grandpap played around with a distillery but it was too much work to make the mash ferment then distill and mix with a full service farm so he gave it up. It wasn't like the gentleman farmers of today that plant corn beans or wheat set back and watch it grow. (My cousins and I worked on the farm most of our summers taking care of the hogs, cattle, chickens, craking corn for feed walking the beans etc.) [I'm sure you know by that it was before Wicks and Roundup]. In recent years some of my cousins were looking at making their own ethanol again but biodiesel would seem to be less labor intensive for the fuel produced as you clearly indicate. In otherwords more bang for the buck.
Are you using Methanol and Lye to extract the lipids because you are using SVO in the cummins after processing or ar you mixing in a little #2 to thin it?
I Think you said you were in Texas so I guess you don't have to worry too much about gelling in the winter time eh?
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yeoman
Junior Member
Posts: 73
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Post by yeoman on Apr 12, 2006 6:42:44 GMT -5
Dear Sagas4 Try www.farmshow.com, latest issue for the gen. info. We had a neighbor in the midwest 25 tears ago that tried to set up a fairly good sized still, legally and all, he never did get it going and almost went broke in the process. If you "walked beans" growing up, you are dating and locating yourself for sure! Been there, done that,no T shirt though.What we do sounds very similar to what your Grandpap had, only he probably sold commodities where we sell everything direct. If your cousins are still farming, biodiesel is the only way to go since their tractors and trucks are probably already diesel. If they are growing soybeans, there are farm size oilpresses for removing the oil from your own beans to use for bd. As stated in my previous post, I use methanol and lye to remove the glycerine. Mixing #2 with SVO was in my pre bd days. Correct again, however with a quality product, gelling is not a problem. Re: Gentleman farmers that grow only row crops. The biggest crop they grow are the subsidies and price supports (read that welfare) received from Uncle Sam. Uh, oh, I feel a rant coming on. Better go! Thanks! |
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Post by KaosTheory on Apr 20, 2006 8:21:32 GMT -5
I have gone through a lot of the material in the DVD/Book combo pack from KnowledgePublications. I'm still going through the Fuel Cell DVD's but I've finished the books and the Hydrogen Car DVD. Maybe we should start a new thread on Hydrogen Civilization. Right now, I am investigating different types of electolysers. One of the more interesting types is patented by Stanley Myers. He uses high voltage and low current and pulses it to the plates at about 20Khz. He uses water only with no electrolytes allowing low current. His approach tries to shake the water apart using frequency resonance. This way the energy produced is more than the energy put in. Hard to believe but the data supports it. Very interesting so far. There is a little movie of his device working: www.hydropowercar.com/download.php?list.14One of these videos is a news clip showing a guy driving a dune buggy type of vehicle that uses only water as fuel. Apparently his onboard hydrogen generator makes enough to supply the vehicle's engine. He puts only water in the tank and drives until the water is gone. |
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Post by NonEntity on Apr 20, 2006 9:31:41 GMT -5
HERE is an article on new nanotechnology device for converting oils into BioDiesel. Very interesting and promising new develpment. - NonE
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Blade
Full Member
"Think for yourself. Question authority."
Posts: 126
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Post by Blade on Apr 20, 2006 11:17:45 GMT -5
www.bwanetwork.comIf no ones been to this site yet I recommend doing so. They make all sorts of products, but the best one is their engine modifications. I attended one of their seminars a while back and saw this technology in action. Watch the videos here: www.bwanetwork.com/engine.htm
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Post by KaosTheory on Apr 20, 2006 19:00:53 GMT -5
Blade, That was a very interesting video. I had just been reading about someone using a mason jar with two hoses connected to the lid. One in and one out. The object was to send vapor only to the engine ala Pogue. Have you heard of him? Anyway, it is easy to see that since only gasoline vapor is making it to the intake, then it wouldn't matter what was added to the fuel. Their wacky additives don't really do anything other than entertain. Only gas vapor makes it to the intake. I will have to look into this further. Seems pretty easy to do to get an immediate boost in fuel economy for a lawnmower. Saga, What is your take on these plans? www.inlex.org/water/water.htmlThey seem feasible and the guy seems honest enough but so far, I have not seen a working model of this design. I am still looking into it. There is a forum that is discussing these topics at: www.hydropowercar.com/forum.phpIt isn't as busy as I'd like though. I'm currently looking around for other forums. Update: I'm adding onto this post as I find more stuff on electolyzers. I think you will like this link: www.rexresearch.com/meyerhy/meyerhy.htm#4936961 |
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Post by lazerwood on Apr 20, 2006 19:58:04 GMT -5
Kaos wrote:
"Their wacky additives don't really do anything other than entertain"...
They do more than that actually. The additives were put in there specifically to thwart the Pogue carburetor success. When the "big boys" found out what Pogue had done, they had the chemists at the oil companies come up with "additives" that supposedly benefitted the engine but in reality "gummed up" any carb that used the Pogue principle to get great mileage. Very shortly, the engine that formerly got great mileage fell back to its old pre-Pogue values. Before the "additives" gasoline was called "white gas", and was very "clean"...lent itself well to the Pogue carb principle.
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Post by edweird on Apr 20, 2006 20:14:36 GMT -5
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Post by sagas4 on Apr 20, 2006 21:29:35 GMT -5
I have gone through a lot of the material in the DVD/Book combo pack from KnowledgePublications. I'm still going through the Fuel Cell DVD's but I've finished the books and the Hydrogen Car DVD. Maybe we should start a new thread on Hydrogen Civilization. Right now, I am investigating different types of electolysers. One of the more interesting types is patented by Stanley Myers. He uses high voltage and low current and pulses it to the plates at about 20Khz. He uses water only with no electrolytes allowing low current. His approach tries to shake the water apart using frequency resonance. This way the energy produced is more than the energy put in. Hard to believe but the data supports it. Very interesting so far. There is a little movie of his device working: www.hydropowercar.com/download.php?list.14One of these videos is a news clip showing a guy driving a dune buggy type of vehicle that uses only water as fuel. Apparently his onboard hydrogen generator makes enough to supply the vehicle's engine. He puts only water in the tank and drives until the water is gone. KT, This sounds interesting. The link took me to a forum. I don't have much time to search right now got a couple of projects in the works, a court date Monday, and a "Code Enforcement" officer payed me a visit today while I was on the Roof. (We had an interesting exchange will tell you bout it some time. I'd like to go have lunch with him sometime as he seemed unbelievably open and interested in discussing the topic of freedom and laws a little more. A personable fellow if you can get past his chosen mode of making a living). Do you have a direct link to the video? As for Carl Cella, I have read that some time ago. I'm not sure if it is possible but it does seem interesting if not over the top. When you do the math I just don;t think and on-board electrolyzer could keep up with the demands of the engine. Further I haven't re-read the article recently so from what I remember there was nothing about how you start the car. I don't recall iof there was a storage device so the electrolyzer would have to start instantly and produce enough H2 to power the startup. On a GM vehicle if the fuel pump is going bad and you have less than about 40PSI the engine simply won't run because the injectors can't vaporize the fuel properly. I think Optimum is aroun 52 PSI, but on a Ford it will run just fine at 30 to 40 PSI. I have been meaning to build an electrolyzer and use a 12 volt 50 amp battery charger and determine the output, but the numbers you find posted on the internet and what Steven Harris talks about just don't add up that an on-board electrolyzer could produce enough H2 to keep the motor running even if you didn't have a supercharged 5k watt stereo amp sucking juice from the alternator. I was getting close to having some time to start some experiments with H2 but the November 2005 tornadoes in KY, traveling to and from helping family and friends and my own projects well . . . P.S. I never said Steven was a personable fellow, but he does seem to have some good information to share. If some of the things I've seen posted by you and others recently actually work I'll have to re -assess that statement. |
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Post by KaosTheory on Apr 21, 2006 0:17:46 GMT -5
Hmm when I click that video link, it takes me right to the videos.
There are 3 altogether.
At the top of the page it should read:
Stanly Myer's Hydrogen Powered buggy [ working H.O.D. ]
Then you should see the available videos right under it.
Alternately, you could start at the Home page, click Downloads, then click "Stanley Meyer's Hydrogen Powered buggy."
One problem that I see with Stan's electrolyzer seems to be that the oxygen and hydrogen float around in the same container after separating into a gas. Normal low voltage electrolysis allows both gases to be separated into 2 different containers. Not sure if this really presents a problem though.
There is a device called a Water Torch using something called Brown's Gas which is similar to what Stan's electrolyzer is producing.
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Post by sagas4 on Apr 21, 2006 1:02:40 GMT -5
Hmm when I click that video link, it takes me right to the videos. There are 3 altogether. At the top of the page it should read: Stanly Myer's Hydrogen Powered buggy [ working H.O.D. ] Then you should see the available videos right under it. Alternately, you could start at the Home page, click Downloads, then click "Stanley Meyer's Hydrogen Powered buggy." One problem that I see with Stan's electrolyzer seems to be that the oxygen and hydrogen float around in the same container after separating into a gas. Normal low voltage electrolysis allows both gases to be separated into 2 different containers. Not sure if this really presents a problem though. There is a device called a Water Torch using something called Brown's Gas which is similar to what Stan's electrolyzer is producing. Doh! My Bad. Yep heard of the Water Torch and Brown's gas. I thought it was a mix of both H(1), H2, O(1) and O2 molecules all kind of mixed together in one container but not actually joined as an H2O compound. i.e. kept in a gaseous state. Keeping highly reactive elements like Hydrogen and Oxygen stored in one containment vessel sounds rather . . . uhhh, explosive but then I don't know that much about the water torch or Brown's gas. |
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